S4 E51: Apocalypse Never? | Michael Shellenberger


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This episode was recorded on October 4th, 2021

Dr. Jordan Peterson and Michael Shellenberger exchange ideas about the Apocalyptic Environmentalism that is getting mainstream coverage. Michael sheds light on the true impact of climate change and the theory of nuclear peace. As they dive into Michael’s new book, “San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities'', Dr. Peterson shares his view on the book and what he enjoyed about it.

Michael Shellenberger is the best-selling author of Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All, a Time Magazine “Hero of the Environment,” and “Green Book Award” winner. He is also the Founder and President of Environmental Progress, an independent and nonprofit research organization based in Berkeley, California. He advises policymakers around the world and has writings and TED talks viewed over 5 million times.

Read Michael’s books: https://shorturl.at/eijoL

Check out Environmental Progress: https://environmentalprogress.org

Follow Michael on Twitter: https://shorturl.at/amLO2




[00:00] Jordan introduces this week's guest, Michael Shellenberger.

[01:07] The meaning of “Time” magazine “hero of environment” and “green book award winner”.

[01:33] Michael’s thoughts on the impact of environmentalism on mental health.

[02:59] Who Michael Shellenberger is and his book "Apocalypse Never."

[05:49] Cognitive Behavior Therapy.

[07:44] Dr. Peterson’s view towards dealing with problems.

[08:44] Being a good person according to Dr. Peterson.

[11:59] The religious movement of Apocalyptic Environmentalism.

[13:19] Dr. Peterson and values.

[21:17] Death of God and the highest ideal.

[24:02] Nature and the positive feminine.

[25:04] 'The Great Mother' by Erich Neumann.

[27:33] The relationship between plastic waste and OCD.

[29:57] Vegetarianism & the ritual of saying grace.

[31:04] Why Dr. Jordan thinks Becker's book is flawed.

[32:09] Erich Neumann 'The Origins and History of Consciousness.'

[36:31] Mass Extinction.

[37:49] Land production according to Michael Shellenberger.

[38:34] Temple Grandin.

[43:58] How sweatshops save the planet.

[45:23] Dr. Peterson shares his perspective on subsistence farming.

[48:35] The smart environmentalists.

[52:07] The food surpluses and population declines.

[53:12] The reduction of carbon emissions.

[55:27] Dr. Peterson comments on being at a subsistence level.

[56:11] Michael’s connection between benevolence and energy transformation.

[57:12] Dr. Peterson comments on the relationship between work and energy.

[57:40] Depression and the environment.

[59:53] Displacement and nuclear power plants.

[01:02:16] The theory of nuclear weapons & peace.

[01:06:19] The unwarranted apocalypse.

[01:08:21] Shellenberger comments on climate change.

[01:09:48] Dealing with the runaway positive feedback loop.

[01:12:58] Dr. Peterson and “safe routes”.

[01:14:10] Dr. Peterson’s perspective towards apocalypses.

[01:15:15] Dealing with crisis and resilience to different kinds of catastrophes.

[01:17:09] Prosperity and eradicating poverty.

[01:20:59] The environmental problems we should address.

[01:24:47] The problem with the free market obsession.

[01:27:42] San FranSicko - Shellenberger’s book.

[01:32:25] Pathological altruism.

[01:34:08] Dr. Peterson’s thoughts on excessive compassion.

[01:37:43] The hero's journey.

[01:38:46] The most reliable cure for alcoholism according to Dr. Peterson.

[01:40:04] Victor Frankl, blaming the victim, and the positive maternal.

[01:45:04] How people in Amsterdam and America deal with addiction.


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